[GixenSteveH]

Thanks for the further update Cupid. Looks like we eventually have a clear description of how this all works - took a long time to get there though. Always a problem when one is working from sources which are either wrong, confusing, unclear or all three!

Given the description we now have, I feel the FAQ about changing bids needs to be completely re-written. The second sentence of the first paragraph is just plain wrong and the way the second paragraph is phrased makes it almost impossible to deduce what will actually happen. In particular, it can easily be read to say that it's just the late edit that will probably be cancelled whereas the most likely outcome of a late edit is in fact a complete cancellation of the snipe (as I found to my cost!). This really must be explicitly stated, and the "might be too late" warning message must also contain this information as, like the FAQ, it can easily be interpreted to mean that it is just the edit that will not be executed. If both the FAQ and the message give this information then at least the user has the opportunity to enter a manual bid in order to hopefully rescue the situation, something they would not at present realise they had to do (again, I speak from bitter experience).

But yes, I do think we will have to "agree to differ" about the effectiveness of late manual bids. You do say though that experienced bidders are likely to have registered a snipe, which rather goes against the theory that manual bids are effective, and of course just because a bidder has decided the maximum amount they would want to pay does not mean they would be entirely happy actually paying that amount. The whole point of snipes is to delay "showing your hand" in the way that manual bids do, in hopes of securing the item at less than your maximum by sneaking in at the last second.

[Cupid]

Yes, I think you've answered your own point. I think the second missile is already sent out as soon as you indicate it's necessary (by confirming the Edit), but that might still be too late, and that was unfortunately the case for your bid, in this case.

Since different technology is used to shoot down the original missile (cancel a snipe in progress in Gixen terms) which is more likely to succeed at a late stage, it's already doing the best that it can for you in these circumstances.

As for your classification of the behaviour of "casual" and "serious" bidders, I think we may have to agree to disagree on that. From my many interactions with Ebay buyers over the years, not just here on this site, I have found that the 'most experienced' bidders have decided, well before that last few minutes of an auction, what their maximum bid on an item is going to be and have made arrangements for that bid to be registered with Ebay, either by scheduling a snipe with a service or by bidding directly on Ebay and relying on the Ebay proxy bidding system to make sure no one else could get it for less than they were willing to pay.

[GixenSteveH]

Perhaps I should have said "earlier than I understand is done at present" in the first part of my initial reply above. That is, I took the implication from Cupid's post that the "kill" was sent out before the second bid was launched, and so if this order was reversed some advantage could be gained. If I mis-understood his post then this might not be the case of course.

I'm sure someone will clarify this point!

[GixenSteveH]

But surely setting off the second missile before attempting to kill the first one i.e. earlier than is done at present, would at least give an increased chance of it getting there? If it doesn't then nothing has been lost relative to the current situation but if it does then that is a massive win. To put it another way - what is there to lose by implementing my suggestion?

I must comment on Cupid's last paragraph though. While it may be true that "casual" bidders i.e. those who are logged off at the time the auction is occuring, might not be alerted to a bid in the last minute or so, "serious" bidders will be logged on and watching every bid as it comes in. Anyone, like me, who has taken this approach will be aware that (presumably) manual bids frequently come in within the last minute or 30secs of an auction, often followed by re-bids from previous bidders who have noticed this, and then several (presumably) sniped bids arrive during the last 10secs. To rely on manual bidding after a Gixen snipe has been (possibly inadvertently) cancelled really isn't going to work, therefore - for any item for which there is bidding competition such bids will certainly be noticed and "trumped" almost immediately.

[Cupid]

I think it's hard to predict what other people will feel about situations you haven't experienced yourself.

To continue the analogy, there can be no guarantee that setting off another missile, after the time when it was scheduled in order to arrive at its target in time, would result in that second missile reaching its target in time. Which is exactly what is already happening, so there's no change in operation from what is already happening from your suggestion, and therefore no improvement, from your perspective, either.

In Gixen sniping terms, you'd just as often still end up with the situation where no bid is actually placed at the end of the day, just as happened in your case.

I'm actually with Ramona on this one, if you change your mind about what you want to bid in the last few minutes of an auction you are better off placing your bid directly on Ebay, even if that results in your bid being placed more than a minute before the auction ends, there's still very little chance of another buyer actually reacting in a true sense to that bid. It's really only likely for others to react if they have time to receive an email about being outbid, log into Ebay and decide that actually they are willing to pay more than they had previously bid... and that always takes quite a few minutes.

[GixenSteveH]

To use Cupid's excellent analogy, I think what I am suggesting is to send the second missile off first and only then try to shoot down the previous one rather than the other way round, which is what seems to be happening at the moment. This would at least ensure that a snipe is in force, even if it is not exactly what the user belatedly decided was appropriate. Does this make sense? Would it be possible to do?

In support of this idea I would repeat my comment to Ramona. Assuming one does actually want to buy the item surely a greater unhappiness would result if another bidder got the item for less than you were prepared to pay in the first place because your entire snipe had been cancelled (my case) as compared to that resulting from you getting the item but perhaps ending up paying a little more than you had at first intended.

[Cupid]

I think perhaps a little more understanding of how a sniping engine works might help manage expectations as to what might be possible and what is unlikely:

So, by way of analogy, the snipes are a bit like missiles, they need to be launched a while before they need to hit their target, it's quite easy to change the payload while they are still in the silo, however once launched that becomes much more difficult as it involves sending it back to the silo first. It's possible to shoot it down before it arrives at it's target, if you have the technology available to do so, but that might not leave enough time for a new missile to reach the target in time.

[GixenSteveH]

I'm very glad to hear it! However, this clarification means the FAQ is incorrect so needs to be updated.

My point about not deleting until the add is confirmed presumably still stands though (if that is possible within the eBay framework).

[mario]

GixenSteveH,

Nothing is deleted when you click on "Edit", delete and add happen at the same time, when you click on "Modify".

[GixenSteveH]

A couple of replies to answer here. I'll start with the second one, from Ramona.

What would make you more unhappy - possibly paying a little more than you expected but getting the item or being denied any chance of getting the item because Gixen deleted your bid? And of course the warning message merely says that your change might not be actioned - there is no suggestion that the result will be a complete deletion of your bid.

As to "why not bid manually", this has been answered elsewhere in the forum. This action will alert other bidders to your interest, the likely consequence being that the high bid will then increase. The whole point of sniping is to get in at the last possible moment, thus giving no chance for competing bids to be made.

Now the first one, from Cupid.

My first thought when I read the FAQ quoted was one of shock. If the first part really means what it says - that merely pressing "Edit" will delete your snipe - then this is not just a disaster waiting to happen but a cast-iron guarantee that it will. I wonder how many other people have missed items because they aborted an edit, maybe days before the auction, and blithely assumed nothing had changed? One sincerely hopes that the snipe is re-instated if "Cancel" is pressed but the obvious question to ask is "why is it done this way?". Surely no action of any sort is required until the user presses "Modify", thus avoiding disaster if the edit is aborted and removing the need to re-instate if it is cleanly cancelled.

Also, deleting immediately is bound to set up the unfortunate outcome I inadvertently encountered, with seemingly no way for the user to rectify the situation even if they recognised what was about to happen. While acknowledging Ramona's point about a bid being reduced, surely there is no problem with leaving any prior bid in operation until a subsequent one has been successfully entered into the eBay system. At least that way what the warning message says is what will actually happen, which must surely be the correct way to proceed.

Maybe the implementors could tell us why this highly dangerous approach has been chosen (or possibly had to be used due to some eBay constraint).

In the meantime - Caveat Emptor!

[Ramona]

Surely Gixen did the exactly right thing to do here - if you had lowered your maximum bid shortly before the auction ended, and Gixen has still bid your previous (and higher) amount, then you also may have been very unhappy.

If you choose to ignore the warning message that Gixen displayed, then I don't think that you can place any blame on Gixen. And if you were editing the snipe so close to the auction end, why not just manually snipe directly on the eBay site instead?

[Cupid]

Quote from the FAQ page:

[GixenSteveH]

Yes, I entirely understand that this last update will not have been accepted but surely this should not have resulted in (it would seem) the entire snipe being cancelled? As mentioned in my original email, I have had the "too late" warning before but things then proceeded on the basis of the last accepted bid - which in this case would have been way more than required to win the auction, hence my concern (My original bid was $50, I then increased it to $100, which was accepted, and the item sold for $28 with no bid from me being registered by eBay). Also, I received no emailed "auction end" notice from Gixen for this auction, another factor which leads me to think my snipe became cancelled.

If a not-accepted update now results in the snipe being cancelled this is a very serious change and should be made generally known. If it is not the case then clearly this was not what caused my problem and so I think a further comment is in order please.

[mario]

174542971127 you edited and increased max bid only 38 seconds before auction end. That's unfortunately too late.

[GixenSteveH]

A few days ago I set up a series of snipes for auctions ending tonight (7th Dec) and tomorrow (8th Dec) and confirmed that they were properly shown in the snipes list. All was going well on 7th Dec. but then one snipe (eBay 174542971127) simply failed to "fire", with the result that I missed out on an item which sold for much less than my original bid. I say "original" as I had increased my bid a couple of times "just in case", and the last increase had the "might not be activated" warning. However, I've had this message before with no problems so I don't think this caused the issue. Also, the snipe and the increases were listed in "History" so I don't know why it wasn't activated. Note that I got no emails telling me about this auction either.

Given the above, I am now a little concerned about my bids for 8th Dec. There are three of them, and although they are all listed in the snipes list only one of them is shown in the History listing - which is also missing other bids which succeeded. I took the precaution of deleting and re-instating the two missing ones but they still did not appear in History (but they are in the snipes list). My fingers are thus tightly crossed!

Can you tell me why my snipe failed and, more importantly, assure me that my currently-scheduled bids will be activated?